Ok Fran, as per your request: Synthzone member, Rattley (Charley), re-assigned instruments to Tyros2 voices. I then adjusted effects volume levels slightly & played back the SMF on Tyros2, recording directly to the Tyros2 HD, in stereo.

Honky Tonk (Commerical SMF) - Played back on Tyros2

Honk Tonk (Commercial SMF) - Played back on G1000

Honky Tonk - recorded by Vince Andreone on Tyros version

Though Vince's version doesn't sound exactly like Doggett, I personally appreciated his version "most" because it showcases him actually PLAYING his rendition, and not simply a store bought 'copy' (simulated note for note) of Bill Doggett's.

Ok, which version sounds best to the rest of you.

Scott

[This message has been edited by Scottyee (edited 05-18-2006).]

Scott it is not terrible, but no thanks..There is still no clarity or separation of sound..No excuses now that it is stereo[and tweaked]..It has a sustaining[annoying ] characteristic through out the song..Still sounds like I am listening from another room..

Absolutely,,NO CIGAR!!!

I place it tied for 5th, with the PA80[maybe slightly behind the PA80]..

SMF playback is still not a Yamaha strenght[never was]..

Maybe you should definately stay in arranger play..

You may think I am a bit harsh, but after your build up and request of a head to head opinion...you got it!!

I'm curious to hear it. However, rapidshare is the bane of blind people worldwide due to that most horrific "please enter the text of the image" feature that they so callously and inconsiderately utilize.

I can email to you[8 megs]..Can your mailbox assept it?

Being a Yammie man I hate to admit I agree with Fran.
I think a couple of individual instruments sound better, more modern?, on the tyros but overall the mix is muddy. the G1000 jumps out at you.

Ok Fran, I merely recorded the commercial SMF you sent me, 'as a favor' to you to satsify your email request. As far as any Tyros2 midi file 'build up' I made goes, it was delivered in 'humorous' (note the accompanying that statement) response to which I felt a rather flippant remark you made to FAEbGBD (Rory Hoffman) that he somehow needed an 'attitude' adjustment?! Anyway, to be honest, I'm not overly impressed with either the G1000 or Tyros2 versions, as the SMF itself merely attempts to imitate (simulate) note for note, the original recording. If the audience really wants to hear the cover version, give them the REAL THING (original CD cut) with orginal artist playing & singing instead.


You're right. I'm sticking to playing live in arranger keyboard mode and playing the music: 'my way'. It certainly works for me. Fran, if playing commercial smfs work better for you, great! Peace. - Scott

[This message has been edited by Scottyee (edited 05-18-2006).]

First let me preface this by saying that, as one who uses BOTH SMFs AND arranger styles during a gig, I do not mean to offend anyone with any of the following comments ... that being said ...

As many have said here, there is room enough for ALL of us, using WHATEVER means we want, to satisfy our clients and ourselves ...

I liken Scott using the arranger mode to when I play a tune using the arranger styles(not that I have his talent) -- I feel like I am back in the days of the band in NY - playing the top tunes - OUR way ... when using a SMF, I feel more like a DJ, spinning the original record, except that I am playing and singing over the backing track, which of course personalizes it to a degree ...
Truth is ... I would MUCH rather be working with the guys in the band again ...
t.

Scott, as you recall, the original concept of my post "Newer is not always better"..was to illustrate exactly that..
It was not to pit the G1000 against the Tyros2. Although that was an old compared to new, that I think showed favorable for the old..

That particular SMF was a random pick, trying to isolate sax parts, as suggested by Gary[Doggett tune]..

As it turned out to be interesting, because Donny, AJ, and Theodore contributed..and it gave a chance to hear and compare other sound sources I am interested in purchasing.

I also enjoyed hearing versions from the "old" Casio MZ2000, which also faired well against the new[ new being, Tyros2, Bandstand, Hypersonic2, and SGM180].
I think the "OLD" guys G1000, MZ2000 and PA80, showed well..
This was my intentions for the initial post..We ran off course a little..no problems, just interesting side notes and findings.
It is alright to disagree, that is why we are called individuals..

I don't quite understand how you can not be impressed with the G1000 and other playback recordings of the Doggett file, but that is your choice[ I gather mostly because you dislike SMF[?}.

I was hoping you and other SZ members would check out the G1000 demos I uploaded...Maybe these can show that the Old can definitely compete with the new "Big Time"..

Fran Honestly.......for me its really the key features & navagational technology of the new versus the old, having as many ON BOARD nessesities "FOR ME" to perform is what Im interested in be it old or new .....as we all can see by this A/B testing that the sounds are not so much different thru the years with some exceptions as with the unique Mega/SA sounds etc, etc,

One of the big problems with arranger play (especially now even Roland have dropped the Chord Sequencer and no-one else has one either) is......... how the hell do you use the bend lever to accurately imitate a sax (or just about any other expressive sound) when your left hand is permanently tied up playing the friggin' chords??

You either have to spend your time bouncing back and forth between playing the chords and dashing back to the bend lever (and forget about a 'scoop' or 'fall' at a chord boundary) or basically just give up on the only technique that can make a keyboard actually sound like a real horn instead of some wanky stylophone sound.

This is why I prefer to use SMFs for a lot of my performances........ I just CANNOT play a horn sound (or pedal steel or lead guitar or minimoog synth or - well, you get the picture) without using the bend lever. I am addicted to it!

And if you would all scream loud enough at your arranger's manufacturers to get the Roland Chord Sequencer idea incorporated into your keyboard, well, you would too!

BTW, I am STILL at a loss to understand why you would want to use a computer or laptop to play MIDI files into Bandstand or whatever, with ALL it's problems, when, for a fraction of the price, you can pick up a used M-GS64 or SC880Pro module and sound better and be more reliable???

The bleeding edge of technology is cool, but I wouldn't want to stake my job on it working without a single glitch. Do you.............??

Ahh Diki,
I don't gig, so I have no use for a reliable sound source, but you are speaking words of wisdom.

Ketron released a very small sound module recently, SD-2 something. Has anyone listened to it?

Fran, I think that sax and acoustic instruments in general would be very well auditioned if any of us could supply a midi file of a very well known tune, like Pink Panther soundtrack.

I have a very good midifile of it, if you are interested I can post it. And we all can post different versions and then decide who's playback is ...ahem...better.

Theodore, personally, I found out all I needed to know..Even though I enjoy listening to different versions, in this context, it seems distressing to some.
I would think it best for this thread...come to an end[conclusion]..


Of course you can start another post, in fun..I would be willing to support your efforts..

BTW..I am referring to my "Newer is not always better " thread..not this thread [Scott's]..

[This message has been edited by Fran Carango (edited 05-19-2006).]

Fran,
Don't misunderstand me, but I am not in a "crusade" to showcase Bandstand or Hypersonic2 or anything, just for the sake of doing it.

I proposed recording other files because I believe it is one way, maybe the only way for me to contribute something you people here don't already know, or have not the means to find out unless you fork out hard earned cash. Some kind of giving back some of the nice things I have learned in this forum.

Of course, you did the right thing in telling me you don't need any more files to form an opinion.
Theodore

Theodore, Actually I would like to hear more comparisons between Bandstand and Hypersonic2..And you are right, it would be beneficial to some of us looking to purchase these products..

Umm.....if it matters, I think the Tyros 2 gave the better (or more believable) presentation overall. While the "G" has strong qualities for sure, for me, it still shows its age in the nuances of the music (much like my keyboard, 1998 GEM WK8).

I can't warm up to the cymbal sounds on the G. Too short, no decay, tick tick tick, too mechanical sounding. Tyros, much more realistic.

The other thing that stood out for me was how conjested the G gets when the music gets busy. At 1:45 into the piece, when the brass kicks in with a lot of splash cymbal and the jazz guitar gets busy, the Tyros does a better job of keeping things real, less blurring or veiling. If you really want to hear mush, this is where my WK8 falls down flat. During this passage, it's not pretty.

The G's sax sure does have a lot of bite, doesn't it? Is that the Growl Sax? Very nice.

I think when it comes to man-made sounds via electronics, things just keep getting better with technology. Faster processors, bigger wavetables, more accurate samples (better recording of), and electronics with more headroom (in both the digital and analog domains)...more realistic sounds or maybe it's better said, a more realistic presentation of the sounds.

So what's the score?

G-1000 = 8

Tyros 2 = 1



-mike

The Tyros 2 has a button that allows you to lock in the left hand chord so you don't have to hold it down. This can also be programmed into registrations.
BEBOP

Diki: Yep, this is the same thing that's frustrated me as well, but thanks to Tyros2's SA (SUPER ARTICULATION) voices, an acoustic instrument's unique 'expressive qualities' are emulated thru a combination of: key pressure (velocity), playing speed, combined with the note distance (interval). In addition, pitch bend and other SA noise (breath, etc) effects can be triggered via foot pedal, leaving the left hand free for triggering chords and left hand kb part play. This includes the ability to play both single or two note melodic fills in the left hand immediately following chords you play (to trigger chord recognition) without affecting that chord recognition, further enhancing LIVE play performance. - Scott

Hi Rory (FAEbGBD): I attempted to send the MP3 (8.6Mb) to your forum profile's email address, but the server rejected it, saying the file is too large. Do you have another email adress I can send it to?

If not, perhaps another member here might host it. Unfortunately, available webspace on my server is currently fill.

Scott

Mike , I thought just the opposite in relation to the cymbals, ride and crash[especially the crash..Roland sample seemed longer to me]..Give it a listen ,again..

I've got a test web server in my office now. Here's the samples that Scott Yee posted.

(no links please)

http://134.84.113.36/mp3s/honkytonkg1000.mp3

http://134.84.113.36/mp3s/honkytonktyros2.mp3

-mike

As you might expect , I prefer the Tyros2 version, which to my ears, sounds richer & fuller bodied, with the indvidual instruments better 'coming together' to form a an 'integrated' band sound. The G1000 version on the other hand, though certainly impressive sounding as well (especially considering it's 1997? vintage), sounds a little thinner, with each individual instrument sounding 'pasted on' at certain points in the sound stage, sounding a little isolated (versus integrated) from one another.

The bottom line is it all comes down to personal taste, plain and simple. C'est la vie, live and let live. - Scott

I liked the first MP3....

the second seemed like it had too much efx on it & boomy bass.

Scott you made a good point..the Tyros2 recording is meshed together like a real band...a band recorded in a garage..
Actually the Tyros2 mimicks Doggett's version ...it also sounds badly recorded[garage]..

I usually stay out of comparison stuff where the responses are coming mostly from individuals that have a history that tends to show a loyalty to specific brand(s)
- - BUT - -
Based on what I just did when listening to the mp3 copies that Mike posted (Thank you Mike) I thought I would pass it along.
(I know I will kick myself in the morning )

I played each one while doing my 9 to 5 work here at the office (my employer).

I realized that if I had been actually performing this, I would have been VERY proud as to what the audience was hearing from BOTH.

I replayed each. A then B, A then B and was hearing something that made me favor 1 over the other. I was not micro-analyzing the 2 because I was pre-occupied with working/typing on the PC.

I said to myself that my ears are picking up on something that i'm favoring with the 1000, but when I went to close the player window on the PC, it maximized the window showing that I was actually listening to the T2.

I called my co-worker over, had him put the headphones on. Several times I selected random starting points in the song. He has never played an instrument but enjoys listening to music. He chose T2 in the majority of the A/B random starting tests.

But again, the bottom line for me and the way I listen and hear things, I'd be proud to have an audience hear either version.

If you want to compare Scott's tweaked Tyros2 version..at least compare it to the real MP3[G1000] that AJ mastered..It was not tweaked..Here is the download link.
http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=5560236517FCF110




[This message has been edited by Fran Carango (edited 05-19-2006).]

Owning both the G1000 and a Tyros 2 as you all know, I actually like both versions so I don't want to say I prefer one over the other, but I can say the guitar solo on the T2 version does sound more realistic to my ears.

The next time we do this..let's pick a shorter, more interesting tune...I don't know if i can listen to song too many more times..

But I will have to...Diki is going to record on the G70 for us..

The 'Minute' Waltz.

I did learn today just how DIFFERENT non-musicians hear things.
I mentioned above, a coworker doing the A/B comparison... but for grins, I copied all the versions onto a CD with the tracks named A,B,C and asked other coworkers to listen and choose 1 track that was their favorite.
NO particular track had dominated, but when I asked each person what was their reasoning for the track they chose, the responses were wild, contradicting, even extremely opposite to the reasoning that someone else had given.
I did this in separate tests, so nobody heard the feedback of others.

Makes me wonder 2 things:
(1) Can a very inexpensive Casio arranger satisfy the ears of the general public?
(2) Do the manufacturers of the arrangers have subliminal suggestions built into the styles telling the owner, "You love this (brand) ... there is no other (brand) for you.

HEY!! maybe you style tweaker/creators can build some subliminal suggestions for audiences like 'Tip $50'



[This message has been edited by MrEd (edited 05-19-2006).]

Oh My God.... Please lets do something shorter. I know that I have listen to this file far to many times. Sufice to say they both have good points. I think that alot of instruments do better when there is a multitude of sounds being mixed together. However, if you were to isolate just one of the sounds from the mix your take may be different as to the authinticity of that particular instrument. Let's do this again some time with a 30 second snipit of a song.
PLEASE

Dennis

Goodness................all this fuss!!

Since getting my Tyros2 in January I have been very pleased with how it plays back good commercial midi files. It seems to do GS midi very well since it now has GS banks. I have also been editing these midi's by assigning the Tyros2 SA and panel voices. Personally, when I first listened to the G1000 version, I thought the piano sounded "cheap" and very "80's midi piano". I have gotten so used to Tyros2 voicing, that anything else sounds lacking. Just my 2 cents worth..............-charley

Charley. that SMF selected a Honky Tonk type piano..it was suppose to sound cheap..

Duh!!..............I know what a honkytonk is supposed to sound like. I stand on my original post. It's obvious all of our ears are tuned differently. Best wishes. -charley

Diki, did you get a chance to record the G70 version?
I am interested in hearing the G70..
If for any reason you decided not to post it, would you please email it to me..Thanks

Charley , I listened again[!!!]..Thankfully, I only have to rely on my ears..

Better 'count me out' next time. As you already knew, commercial SMF playback, in an attempt to duplicate(?) the cover version is just, NOT my thing. Making music (to me) is about performance artistry, and musicianship, so it's interesting that so much emphasis is being placed on how good/bad commercially produced smfs sound played back (alone) thru our keyboards, while NOTHING is discussed about the live arr keyboard playing techniques used while playing along with them. Fran, how about instead, posting some new songs to showcase your live keyboard playing style used + vocals, when performing with your commericial smfs. - Scott

Scott as I mentioned before the SMF adventure was a convenient way to illustrate "OLD" verses "NEW" sounds{basically a sax was the intended instrument]..

It was not a Pro /Con SMF post..

As for me posting "my" demo songs...what is the point?

If you want to hear what I do, come to one of my gigs..I can spontaneously play most request[arranger play]..without the written music..for a smooth no panic "find the music and set up the board" performances...

My weakness as with many..is remembering lyrics...keep in mind I never had to be a strong vocalist..the people I worked with are/were top artist.
I have a list of young[and older] ladies, that I would work on the spot of the moment...they are that good, and it is a pleasure to work with them....Now "mood wise" that 's another thing...It seems like a few days every month they get difficult..

Scott knowing you are a trained pianist, I would like to hear you slide away from the overdone arranger stuff..and let us hear your chops[no vocals..please]..

Fran, I think by you posting more demo songs, it would perhaps best showcase how 'you' use SMF combined with live arr playing to best advantage, and provide an educational insight for myself & others here as well. Fran, though I'd love to come to one of your gigs, listening to your music over the web would certainly be a lot more convenient (and less costly) than traveling over 2,500 to Levittown,Pa, right?



Though I acknowledge having had formal piano lessons (ages 4-13), I'm first to admit that whatever traditional piano chops I had, are now pretty rusty, because I market myself as a vocalist/arranger keyboard player, not a solo pianist, primarily utilizing pianistic comping techniques to accompany my singing.

Fran, interesting to hear you say that my 'arranger stuff' sounds "overdone" (?) ! On the contrary, my songs, in general, only include auto accomp drums & bass, with keyboard parts and instrumental solos all performed live, as evidenced by my recent songs posted: "This Could Be The Start Of Something Big" & "Nice And Easy".

Scott

[This message has been edited by Scottyee (edited 05-20-2006).]

Scott the two songs you mentioned are by far your best,,I also think you did a good job on them..
When I refer to overdone, I pretty much refer to the big band intros, fills , and endings..along with other styles you use..

Likewise as we all do,I have diminished chops..In my case physical work[contractor], sports[avid basketball player], maybe age[?] have taken it's tolls with dexterity.

Scott, I am not sure, but if we lived in the same area..we would be good friends with a sense of humour, that we could kid or even make a point in jest....or maybe I still might smack you beside the head..

My circle of musician friends are also my regular friends...We don't always agree with each other...make fun of each other...and even offer constructive criticism[even when do not ask...but because we are face to face and know our individual personalities, there are no problems even when we strongly disagree..

I am sure when we post[type] none of these characteristics come through...

Maybe you should travel the 2,500 miles, and get to know me, Donny and Dave..
Maybe we all would come away with different opinions and respect...

PS...I would supply a bed for you....of course it will be out on the deck..There is electric out there..Bring your Tyros and you can work on your chops..

The problem with SMF is that if 2 people were to sing over the top of them (on the same keyboard, just the SMF with no parts added) you would get 2 different vocal performances with 2 identical backing tracks. On the other hand if 2 people were to play the song live on the keyboard, you would still get 2 different vocal performances but obviously you would now get 2 different interpretations of the song. That's why I don't like SMF's myself. There is no room for expressing yourself live when the song has already been pre-recorded.
It's each to their own, there is a market for the 100% live entertainer and the musicians that still have to rely on backing tracks/SMF/MP3 etc.

Craig, some good points, but I disagree a little..
First, using SMF's/MP3's doesn't mean you need to rely on them[believe me , we can also play anyway you want],,As I mentioned before..there are venues that we need to use this media..

Second, Arranger play is far from 100% live play. We only control snippets of data, the same data as SMF's...

As for your illustration of playing over a SMF, with vocals...Your point is not always true..
We can use many factors to make the SMF our own, and still have that "Like the record" sound that these venues I mentioned require..

Markers are one of the tools that allow us to use a SMF in a very personal way, Covers[Roland} can make a sequence sound much different without destroying the integrity of the SMF..
Using key changes[modulation] is another tool.

We have just as many tools in our arsenal for SMF's as we do arranger play..

This post is to bring attention to ways to work that maybe others[if not yourself] are not aware..

Sorry, guys, but I've got an EXTREMELY busy week, couple of gigs some days, singles the rest, so I'm not going to be able to get the G70 into the house until next week.

Catch you later...........

BTW, do you know about the Purgatory Creek piano comparison website? (http://www.purgatorycreek.com/index.html follow the link to digital piano comparison). They have one standard SMF of a very dynamic piano performance, and then everyone runs it through whatever piano sound they have and post the mp3......... Brilliant!

Someone REALLY needs to do something similar for general SMF playback too.............

My thoughts.
The guitar on the Tyros was better. The timbre of the drums was better on the Tyros, but they weren't mixed up loud enough. Sax: G1000 had a slight edge because it was a growl sax. The Tyros sax sounded better in the lower registers because there were more samples down there, but the overall sax was just a little too smooth for this growly type blues.
So, overall, I think the G1000 had a little bit better blusey sound due to the growl in the sax and the louder mix of the drums. Tyros 2 would have won to me if the drum levels were louder, and the sax had a growl.

But we are talking about un-tweaked SMFs here apparently.......... plenty of you feel that re-working the header is too much work.

Just ONE SMF is hardly a fair comparison - the sax that sounds good in one song may not work well in another, and presumable, we are talking about GM playback, not GS or XG, so, although you may have a dozen different saxes in your keyboard, if the SMF calls up a tenor, that's it......... no choice of 'breathy' tenor, or 'growl' tenor or whatever. One tenor, one alto, one bari........ that's all GM allows for. The tenor may work in a R&R piece and suck in a jazz setting.

THIS is why the ability to QUICKLY change the header information is essential, or you might as well use an old SC-55 (which is probably what 80% of the SMFs out there were written for).

All this running around in circles, trying to find something that does as good a job as a cheap Roland module....... LOL

The same type of discussion was on the Technics forum a while back.

The KN 2000 verses the newer KNs. The Kn 2000 had great instrument separation, straight ahead drums right up front, and some great separation of instrument sounds.
One thing I had to keep in mind, the music was SIMPLE AND BASIC then and so was THEIR INSTRUMENTS. ---And --- so is the KN 2000. They are a fantastic match for that kind of music.
The KN 7000 did not play that type of song as well. To much happening and the instruments were not the same. ----
So, the KN2000 still lives on –BUT NOT IN ALL AREAS, it’s LIMITED.

In My Humble Opinion, John C.